Saturday, May 21, 2005

Love & Choice


Love & Rape


The political arm of the Fundamentalists has boiled Christianity down to two issues; Abortion and Homosexuality. The truth is that those running these campaigns couldn’t care less about either issue, but see these as Hot button issues to polarize and mobilize voters. They presume to pretend they are of such high moral ground; as though they are not guilty of having had sex outside the marriage bond, and then they go around condemning others. "Know ye not that by what measure you judge you will be judged?" Are you going to tell us that the things they are accusing those others of, they themselves are not guilty of? Too bad these were not in the crowd with Jesus when the harlot was brought to Him for he truly would have found his men. The harlot surely would have been stoned. Hypocrites! Woe unto you, "the harlots shall go into the kingdom of God before you." Mt: 21:31. Who made them the judge over anyone's life choices? It was God who gave us a choice; it is Antichrist that would like to take it away. God would guide us into truth and He gave us a conscience so that we hopefully will make the right choice. Would you declare that we don't need the ability to choose anymore, because your righteousness has made that choice for us? I am not saying I believe in abortion, (as much as they want to frame it that way with right wing spin) but we know that life has many different turns and circumstances. Some have been raped or abused, or are in poverty. I agree that perhaps it is taken far too lightly and may be occurring far too often; but the answer to that would be counseling and teaching. We should help people care more about the sanctity of their own bodies. If it is outlawed, it will go underground and women will be butchered in back alleys. Who am I to tell anyone what is the right choice in their circumstance. I would just pray that they would make the right choice. Ah but you would say they are murdering babies, because they are making the wrong choice. That would be for God to decide. Let me remind you that God foreknowing the choice we would make in the garden, knowing that the wrong choice would bring the fall of man, with all its suffering; Knowing we would make the wrong choice, still allowed us the choice. It is man making himself God (antichrist) that would take away choice. To say that life begins at conception is a theological belief. It follows a line of thinking that conception if left to its natural path would result in a baby. That is true, but that doesn't mean that if interrupted at some early point, that it is at that point a baby with a soul. The belief that we should not interfere comes from a few scriptures like Mt: 19:6: “Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” The problem is that these scriptures are dealing with marriage or being born again. On the other hand some would say that a child becomes a living soul with its first breath. Gen: 2:7: “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” It is amazing to me that anyone would be so adamant over a questionable soul, and have no regard over those that are unquestionable. The Bush's have killed hundreds of thousands so far. There is no shadowy theological question about that.
The other lie that has been spread to purely play on people’s prejudices is the Gay issue. The idea is that a gay person is automatically in sin and separated from God. This bigotry is preached from the pulpit of the Religious Right. You are lead to believe that homosexuality is a choice. That idea is completely unsubstantiated. Ask any gay person what they think. Yet these people automatically discount what gays say as unreliable and their word is reliable, even though they have not experienced what a gay person goes through. I would ask, “When did you choose to be straight?” I think that is an excellent question. Who in their right mind would choose a life of discrimination and persecution? If the homosexual has a promiscuous life, I would ask whose fault is that? I would give the blame to the Church. If you have been taught that you are condemned already, then why not just go and indulge all your lusts. There is a difference between love and lust, straight or gay. Mt: 23:13: “But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.” Christ died for Gay people also. As a result of the rejection they have experienced, many seek for a spiritual life in all kinds of places, from cults to Eastern religions. We as Christians are called to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and lift up the glory of Jesus. Any cleaning up of our lives is done in the presence of God as we come boldly before His throne that we may receive grace to help. Heb: 4:16: “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.” In other words we should not put the cart before the horse, we do not clean up our lives first in order to come before God; we come before God as we are and he cleans us up. To tell a gay person that he must stop being gay is the same as telling a straight person to stop being straight. To most of us that would seem just impossible. It is a part of your very fabric. Again in Matthew in the same passage dealing with shutting up the Kingdom we see this; Mt: 23:4: “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” I know that with God all things are possible, but it would appear that this is not an issue to God. Jesus never mentions it.
Even if it were important, where would you get that kind of grace to change? Only because you were in love with the Most High God, and to be in love you would need to be able to come as you are so you could know Him; not turned away before you are even getting started.
I think it would be important to look at exactly what the Bible does say about this subject, which is amazingly little. As Al Franken put it “if you took out of the Bible everything that has to do with homosexuality, you would wouldn’t even notice a difference; but if you took out everything that has to do with looking out for the down trodden and the sick and the poor, you would have a box just about the right size to smuggle Rush Limbaugh’s drugs in”. There is no question that Gods creation was meant to be for Man to desire a Woman. What most over look is that we are living in a fallen creation. There are all kinds of things that are not quite in the perfection that God intended. If a person is born with an abnormality would you say they are going to hell for it? No, and yet if the world were in Gods perfect order, there would be no imperfections.
First let’s deal with the passage in Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 ““Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” The code of Laws and customs in Leviticus were not intended for Christians. We are not under the Law but under Grace. The Old Testament Law was meant to convict all of sin so that we would know we needed a savior. No Christian group would demand that we obey all the rules that are laid down in these verses. If we did we would have to keep the kosher laws as well. We don’t demand compliance with the other sexual rules in Leviticus. If we did, we could not touch our wives during her monthly cycle and we would allow polygamy, which is lawful in Leviticus. Unless you are willing and able to obey all the rules in Leviticus, you cannot blame the homosexual for not feeling bound to obey them. To point to these two verses and demand that kind of selective compliance is ludicrous and wrong.
I use in my discussion mostly the King James Version; it seems to have less of an axe to grind than many modern day translations.
Now what about Sodom? Genesis 19:1-29 If you read this passage you will see that it says in vs. 4 “All the men young and old” It is highly unlikely that a whole city was homosexual, the whole city may have been self indulgent and lustful, but not that they would have an orientation to homosexuality. It is also apparent that these men were not looking for a consensual good time; they wanted to rape the angels. It is also clear that these men were not just homosexual but looking to fulfill their lust, or Lot would not have offered them his daughters The true sin of Sodom is revealed to us in Ezekiel:16:49: Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, (it seems that one of the main accusers of the homosexual is guilty of this sin of Gluttony, Have a look at those cheeks on Jerry Falwell) and abundance of idleness (this is what our entire society is caught up in idolizing movie and sports stars) was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy (tax cuts for the rich and no health care for the poor). 50: And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. This society had become completely self indulgent.
Now let us look at the New Testament. The one passage that is seemingly the most damning is Romans 1:18-29. This scripture is not what it appears to be on the surface. This is a condemnation of ungodly ritual indulgence, which worked up into a frenzy of all manner of sexual lust. This was not a condemnation of Love between two men or between two women. If you think it is, then it carries the same condemnation of “fornication”; but for some reason these modern day Pharisees seem to skip over that part. Because they are not looking for a way to redeem those whom Christ died for but rather to condemn in order to better justify their own self-righteousness. They fail to notice what it says just a few verses down. Romans 2: 1: “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.”
This brings us to the passage in 1 Corinthians 6: 9: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (I know that some new translations incorrectly have in this place the words “male prostitutes and homosexuals) 10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11: And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.” Before I get into the break down of those words, I would call your attention to the other words that I have in bold letters. These carry equal weight. The word translated in the KJV as “effeminate” would have been better translated the “self-indulgent” Does this remind you of Sodom? That word could not have anything to do with being a homosexual, because although there are effeminate homosexuals, there are plenty of effeminate straight men as well. The reason the KJV writers used that word was because they were referring to the Kings of France as being self-indulgent prancing about in their frills and “girly-man” wigs. They were what were brought to the English’s mind when you used the word effeminate. The next words “abusers of themselves with mankind” would have been better translated as “exploitation” It may have had to do with male prostitutes, but also any kind of prostitution. It was actually directed at those that used the prostitutes more so then those that were being used. They are more the victims of abuse. In our society we are surrounded with all kinds of exploitation; from the Rich to the Corporations. Anytime you do something for your advantage or pleasure that uses another, or takes advantage of their situation is to exploit them.
Unfortunately there many gay men that perhaps because of guilt or being told they must be straight end up marrying and then sneak around behind their wives back. They deny there true identity to themselves and others and as a result have a secret life. When and if they are exposed it is often disastrous to them and their families. Some even committing suicide. What a shame. Then there are those that try to combat it within themselves buy becoming “homophobic homosexuals” or “self-loathing.” Then some become just plain hypocrites. Here are a few examples. This is from the New York Times on April 9, 2005 The Article “G.O.P. Consultant Weds His Male Partner” “Arthur J. Finkelstein, a prominent Republican consultant who has directed a series of hard-edged political campaigns to elect conservatives in the United States and Israel over the last 25 years, said Friday that he had married his male partner in a civil ceremony at his home in Massachusetts.”He was actively anti-gay. Or how about this “Two men have told a Spokane, Washington, newspaper that Mayor Jim West offered them jobs after meeting in a gay Internet chat room.” Article says how he fought against any gay equality issues.
Another good site on the subject is The Real Live Preacher.
By this discussion I am not saying that the homosexual or anyone else is not called to righteousness. They are responsible for moral behavior that is not destructive to themselves or others just like everyone else that wants to know a walk with God.
I am saying though that a committed relationship based in Love can be blessed by God. It says in Hebrews 13:4: "Marriage is honorable in ALL, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge." (It does not say in that passage the marriage is only honorable between a man and a woman) Gal: 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
I realize that many are coming from a position that has been held since the middle ages. Perhaps it is time that these issues are reexamined. I believe that the truth of Gods word is being progressively restored to His Church. No question that Gods perfect order is for one man and one woman to be in a loyal blissful marriage, but unfortunately that is rare. There is a 1.Good and 2.Acceptable and 3.Perfect will of God. Rom.12.1. or none of us would marry for that is what Paul thought would be best. I am fully aware that many will disagree with this post, but my intent is not to convince everyone, but to win those that may be alienated from the Lord to "Come unto Him" Eph:1:6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Let each person come before God and seek what is Gods will for their life according to His Word and their conscience. Titus:1:15: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
Lastly George W Bush may be guilty of both these things he has fought against. Abortion and Gay Rights. Now isn’t that just like the Antichrist.
We are taught by Gods word that “The truth will make you free” Jn:8:32 This teaching has liberated many to come to the Love of Christ.


We are also taught buy our Lord in Mathew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.” Now when you look at this passage, we can understand several things, one thing that would be clear is that a false prophet would teach false doctrine and false doctrine would bring forth bad fruit, as good doctrine would bring forth good fruit. Also notice that they are in sheep's clothing, which would say they are seemingly gentle and perhaps well meaning and as a sheep, maybe part of the “Flock”; but their motives are not Godly. They want to divide and concur, which is the tactic that the Republican, religious right power hungry leaders have as their intent.

Finally I would point out that Jesus tells us that we will know them not by their doctrine, but buy the end result of their doctrine “the fruit”. We are many times confused by doctrine, and men have disagreed through the ages. The smartest of men are still dumb when we look at the Wisdom of God. So Jesus made it more simple for us. He was saying here that you are not smart enough to always know the correct doctrine, so look at the end result. The “Fruit” We know what the fruit of the spirit is from Gal:5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Now look at the fruit of the teaching of the fundamentalists on this subject. Young kids kill themselves, or bullies beat them up. Parents reject their own children, Men or women get married trying to hide who they are, and end up sneaking around behind their spouses backs, and not only ruin their own lives but also ruin the lives of the wife or husband they may take. These things are just “the tip of the ice berg”

These people know what it means to be despised and rejected of men.

53 comments:

JES said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
JES said...

On Friday of this week, President Bush threatened to veto a bill expanding public funding for embryonic stem cell research.
"I made [it] very clear to the Congress that the use of federal money, taxpayers' money, to promote science which destroys life in order to save life, I'm against that," Bush told reporters. "Therefore if the bill does that, I will veto it."
(view entire article at …) http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/05/20/bush.stem.cells/

When I read this, I was struck by the utter hypocrisy of his statement. What is the difference in destroying the lives of our troops for the purpose of saving the lives of those in Iraq? I gave it alot of thought, and I just can't come up with any logical thought process that differentiates the two circumstances.

This scenario underscores PeterZ’s observation in his post on May 21, 2005 regarding abortion being one of the hot foundational buttons of the conservative sect.

I have no particular conclusion other than the spiritual repulsion that I felt when I heard Mr. Bush's comment. Our leader is an idiot- a man of minimal intellect who is driven by greed, pious agenda, and ignorance. Despite my desire to ignore politics, it becomes increasingly evident that I can't. I am not sure what I can do, but I thought this post might be a good place to start.

Saint said...

I totally agree that there are MUCH bigger issues than homosexuality and abortion. the G.O.P. treats these issue as if they are the "spiritual" or "Biblical" issues of our day and pretend that Democrats who fight for social justice and the environment are not seeing the heart of God. The part that gets me is that social justice and the environment are HUGELY Bibical issues. Much more so than the other two.

The other thing about homosexuality that I have come to realize is that "BEING GAY" (as in, being attracted to or tempted by the same sex) is not a sin anymore than the natural temptation a heterosexual person has for the opposite sex is a sin. Both are not good things because both fall outside the God-ordered way of things. It is the engaging in these activities (sex outside of marriage)that makes it sin. The problem with homsexuality is that there is no proper place for that kind of sex as there is no God-ordained union for that.

Another thought on homosexuality is this - why are Christians so adamantly opposed to the idea that it may be a "natural" thing to be gay? Does it not say all over the Bible that human beings are SINFUL by Nature?? So how does the argument "But I was born this way" matter? "Yes, you were born that way, just like I was born being a liar and that person over there was born a gosspip". We were all born sinners, so yes of course it makes perfect sense that people can be born gay. That's kind of the point. The only time humans make any progress toward God is when we fight against our nature to do the right thing instead.

Peter Zarcone said...

It is not being gay that is a sin, but what one may do as a result of it that can be. I know several gay couples in long term committed relationships. With or without the approval of the government

Peace said...

Nice post Peter, as usual. :)

My mom always said to those who would like to point out how righteous they were and she had better join their church so as to be saved... "Jesus died for the sinner not the saint, have a nice day" *close door*

Keep up the good work, Peter. Nice comments to the others as well.

Peace

Peace said...

Oh, no missunderstanding please, what I said had nothing to do with the "Saint" above. *LOL* I'm a little loopy but mean well.

GB all,
Peace

Saint said...

Heh no worries Peace I know what you meant, and it is very true. One quote I heard recently that I love is this - "Jesus didn't come to make good men better, he came to make dead men live."

Anonymous said...

peterz-I have been reading your site for a while, and I believe you can be counted on to speak TRUTH. I feel like Susanne (in one of your comments) that I am alone in the belief about GWB. Know one that I have mentioned it to believes it. All the people in my church love this evil man and call him godly. I had to leave because i felt like a collaborator in their delusion if I stayed. I prayed about this before I left. So now I am totaly alone except the people on your site that are going through the same thing. Why me, why can't they see it and I can? I'm just a christian committed to the Lord, nothing special. What makes us different?
I would like to hear from you.
Brenda

Peter Zarcone said...

To Brenda..
There are more of us than you may realize. Just keep telling people the truth and God will use you, try to seek out other like minded people; and if you can get them to read this site and Hanchett's sites and the other links on here. Spread the word. God Bless. These are exciting and perilous times.
Peter

ERJ said...

The comment by anonymous reminds me of the movie Close Encounters of the third Kind where a select group of people are called to a specific site to view a gathering of visitors from another planet. These people start to think that they are crazy, but the vision drawing them is so strong, they continue on their quest regardless of obstacles thrown in their path. The vision of what is actually happening today is very strong to a select group, so don't give up. James Baldwin said, "People who shut their eyes to reality simply invite their own destruction." Time will tell, and I think sooner than later. ERJ

Anonymous said...

ERJ,
You have hit the nail on the head for me! I have tried to not have this be all consuming for me by not listening to the news anymore, and just focusing on God, (because it can sorta drive you crazy, and become all consuming), especially when you have no-one to share it with, with no use. I hear bits and pieces of biblical prophecy in the news (such as fighting at the Temple this weekend in Jerusalem) when I'm sitting at street lights and hear other people's radios, going into stores, etc. It starts to feel like a haunting in a way. But, of course, if it is Jesus, that is in a good way. And I feel like I am supposed to be doing or saying something I'm not, and I don't know what it is. So I have been praying a lot about it. Part of me wants to be able to shut my eyes and mind, but I'm starting to think I don't have an option. As Peter said, exciting and scary times. I know I do not ever feel fear when I think about what's to come, just joyous for my Lord to return.....I think sooner rather than later, also.
Susanne

Anonymous said...

Dear souls:
If a human and a beloved pet have a committed relationship of love and respect, would their physical intercourse be no sin? It would be sin, as being not ordained by God, which is evident by the order of his creation. But the creation is under a curse, due to the sin of Adam. Therefore, the flesh has a tendency toward evil and impropriety, that is not in accord with the original good order of God's intention for things when he finished his work and beheld that his creation was originally "very good". Different individuals are prone to different sins. In the goodness of the order of God's original creation he created a man and a woman to be man and wife. Now sin is anything of which God does not approve. Therefore we are all sinners. We must confess our sins to God, and agree with him that his ways are true and right and good. We must ask for both forgiveness and deliverence from the continuance of sin. God condemns sin, but justifies repentant sinners. So neither should we condemn sinners, nor should we justify sin.

Living Positive said...

I would suggest reading "Why Does God Hate Sin."

I believe that if you read it prayerfully you will understand that Peterz does not justify sin.

Peter Zarcone said...
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Peter Zarcone said...

To the Anonymous above. I believe you have missed the point of the fruit of a committed relationship. When two PEOPLE love each other, they help meet each others needs, and help each other grow spiritually.
Although your point that God justifies repentant sinners is sound and based in Biblical truth, Your other presumptions are not, but based rather in your observations. You have also confused a fetish with an orientation. To compare two humans that are both capable of loving each other, and have a soul, with bestiality, is typical of the kind of lack of understanding that comes from the self-righteous fundamentalists. There is a possibility of real Love between two people, that is not possible with a human being and an animal. What a shallow and callous statement to say that a "beloved pet" has a committed love and respect. That would be called lust centered in the flesh. Be very careful that though you may mean well you be not guilty of shutting up the Kingdom of God against men. The early church did not hold the same view as you seem to.

Saint said...

Anything that is outside of what God has ordained is sin. Sexual relations between any two people is a sin UNLESS it is within the confines of how God created it - between married people. This rule applies both to heterosexual sex and homosexual sex.

The Bible also makes it very clear that MARRIAGE is an instituation that exists between a man and a woman. So if the ONLY proper place for sex is within marriage and marriage is between a man and a woman, then this also reveals that sex between two people of the same sex HAS NO GOD-ORDAINED CONTEXT.

No matter what a same-sex couple does, their relations (of a sexual or romantic nature) will ALWAYS be outside of God's design. I look on this in the same way that I look at unmarried heterosexual couples who have sex. It is a sin, plain and simple. Whether they love each other or not is not the issue. They aren't married, therefore there should be no sex.

Heterosexual couples can get married, which then allows for sex in the way God created it. Homosexual couples can not get married - no matter what the world deems to be "legal", it still goes against God's design.

I definately appreciate the fact that these people are no worse off in reference to sin than anyone. What makes it sad is that their lusts and desires and not only out of their proper context as in pre-marital hetero sex, but their entire concept of sexuality is entirely a lie.

Peter Zarcone said...

To Saint, I realize that you are coming from the position that has been held since the middle ages.I believe that the truth of Gods word is being progressively restored to His Church. No question that Gods perfect order is for one man and one women to be in a loyal blissful marriage, but unfortunately that is rare. There is a 1.Good and 2.Acceptable and 3.Perfect will of God. Rom.12.1.Or none of us would marry for that is what Paul thought would be best. I am fully aware that many will disagree with this post, but my intent is not to convince everyone, but to win those that may be alienated from the Lord to "Come unto Him" Eph:1:6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Because the Bible speaks of the marriage of "Man and Wife" doesn't mean that same sex "marriage" can not be acceptable. I also believe that these things are a matter that if God wants to change, it will only be done by walking in his grace as He reveals His will for each individual life. There are much weightier matters of Godliness that we need to be concerned with. It says in Hebrews 13:4: Marriage is honorable in ALL, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.( It does not say in that passage the marriage is only honorable between a man and a women)Gal:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. I have intended this post to be taken in the light of my previous post "Why God Hates Sin" It seems to me that what type of body a spirit dwells in is not what is important to God, other than for the purpose of revealing the relation between Christ and his Church. Bride is the Church and Bridegroom is Christ. I am not a woman, yet Christ is going to marry me. In the resurrection we are neither marrying nor giving in marriage. The idea is more about who leads, who is the Head of the Church. Let us not single out this issue anymore than we would a Husband that submits to his wife.
1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing ( or deceiving) spirits, and doctrines of devils;( like the Religious Right) 2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
I hope that if you don't agree with this position that you would at least give honor to the possibility that we don't have all the answers on this subject.

Living Positive said...
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Living Positive said...

Peter,
Thanks for your post and your latest response here.

I believe that there are many "lost ones" because of the profession of so many upstanding good "Christians" that homosexuality is an automatic ticket to Hell and God's hotline automatically hangs up on them if the caller ID says "homosexual."

I find it interesting that the original King James Version does not use the term "homosexual" but newer "translations" do.

I was wondering, could you could help me write a piece for my blog on the history of homophobia in Christianity?

I think many would be interested in knowing about the introduction in the middle ages of "sodomy" - a term not used before that time.

I find it interesting that "sodomy" is limited to sexual behavior when Ezekiel said:

Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

Thanks

Saint said...

PeterZ - I very much respect your wisdom and genuine love for God, but I feel you are travelling down a dangerous path here. The way that you are rationalizing that homosexual behaviour is not sin could be applied to many other sins, such as pedophilia, etc. Or in a broader sense it could be applied to basically any sin.

Be careful that you do not make the leap from "tolerating the sinner " to "tolerating the sin". They are very different things. God has never anywhere blessed or ordained sexual relationships between same-sex partners, nor was there ever an institution created by God for same-sex marriage. Marriage was created and remains a union between man and woman, as started at the very beginning. To say that we are now allowed to deviate from that because we are under grace is absolutely untrue. Sin is still sin. Being gay is not an automatic ticket to hell, but it is wrong, nonetheless.

Anonymous said...

Saint, if in fact you are. Are you gay? If you are not, you have no idea what you are talking about. How dare you begin to compare my love for my partner with pedophilia, or the other idiot above with bestiality. We have been together for almost 25 years, in a loving and committed relationship. I had turned my back on Jesus because of people like you. Are you telling me that now after 25 years I should leave the love of my life because Christ won't accept me unless I do?
You are a self- righteous pompous ass. You are trying to lay a burden that is too heavy to be borne on my gay brothers and sisters.( Mt. 23 vs.4) You would send them to the gay bars and bathrooms because they can't be who they are, nor would you allow them the same human dignity of loving, that you may enjoy. You sir are FLAT WRONG!! I think PeterZ has made some excellent points all backed up with scripture. You have made no biblical reference. You have just continued to spew the same Religious-Reich crap that is not based in the Bible but rather in your traditions of men. As PeterZ said in his previous post, "God hates sin because it hurts us, the object of his love". That makes a great deal of sense to me. I don't think anyone who knows us would say our love is hurting us or anyone else. It does in fact bear much fruit, that is a blessing to others as well. Your doctrine on the other hand hurts many and creates an attitude of homophobia that encourages discrimination and violence against gay people. It does not bring people to the Lord, but turns them away. Have you ever lifted a finger to do anything to help an AIDS victim? Do you know anyone that has been gay and truly become straight? I know about the BS stories that you have been told, but in the end those HOMO converts end up sneaking around behind their wives or husbands back. Jesus said "You will know the false prophets or teachings by the fruit they bear." What you teach does not bring good fruit, PeterZ's does.

Peter Zarcone said...

To Saint. I Thought I had given a fair and honest Biblically based answer to all your concerns in my Blog post and my posts above.( you may want to reread them) You raised the point that the Bible doesn't mention a blessing or a ordination of same sex marriage. I would point out that it actually doesn't mention it at all in either a positive or negative way. In fact In Hebrews 13:4 it does Say "Marriage is honorable in ALL." Again I know this is controversial, but wouldn't you think if this was such an important issue we would have had a clear picture in the Scripture? I fear this issue has destroyed many whom Christ died for, and most have just oversimplified both issues. I agree with the feelings of the Anonymous above, and see the pain that some long held positions have caused. I also agree that they more likely have their origins in the prejudices of men. I would prefer to err; If I am in error, on the side of Gods grace and mercy in this matter. My main purpose for having written this post is to point out the hypocrisy of the Religious Right and to show how at best they are on shaky ground with both these issues that they have used to divide. Thanks for your input. may God Bless and continue to give us all more light unto the day of His coming.

Ronnie said...

Peter, your web page is great information and I just wanted to let you know after reading all the comments posted regarding "Love and Choice" I already had an opinion and now realize I too need to voice it more often. And I will. Thanks for your web site and all those who support and appose what it stands for. Debate is very healthy and only brings about a better understanding for those who are willing to listen.

Yogi said...

I have come to believe that I don't need to go to church. I don't need someone to tell me what the Bible means, that's their interpretation of it. It always bothered me that the preacher would say this means this and that means that, if you don't do this your going to Hell, blah, blah, blah. The truth is in your heart, no one can teach you that, you have to experience it to know it, follow your heart not your mind (ego). I know that the Church is here for guidance, but exercise your Free Will to find the Truth and the Truth shall set you free!!!

Anonymous said...

Peterz-I agree with saint, only because it is clear in God's word that marriage is between a man and woman. Paul tells the Church in 1Corinthians 6:9 to not practice these thing, because these were the things that they were guilty of before they believed, and now they were to live their lives holy unto God. I point my finger at no one. I'm saved only by my faith in Jesus Christ. I can say that the more obedient you are to Him, the more your eyes are open to His Truth. Where there is comprise the truth in not relevant anymore.
Brenda

Peace said...

I'm pretty sure that where Jesus is concerned homosexuality is neither here nor there. When I was young I had decided I would not have sexual relations with anyone until I was in love... No marriage in the conventional sense was not a factor as I have stated before in a previous post I believe love is the most important factor where God is concerned, consummation of a marriage is associated with sex because it is the most intimate we as human beings can be with one another, still is it that which bonds two people in holy matrimony? Being married means to be "united" that could mean physically, but "soul mates" is a more relevant definition of marriage in the eyes of God. "Soul mates" usually refers to each individual having an intimate understanding of the other. "intimacy" (dictionary definition in the first sense: n 1: close or warm friendship; "the absence of fences created a mysterious intimacy in which no one knew privacy" [syn: familiarity, closeness]) What's "holy matrimony"? How can a person say they are ordained with the power to say a man and woman are united in holy matrimony? No man or woman on this planet can claim "holiness" and if they do they are lying to themselves as well as extremely self righteous. It is funny isn't it how some think you can go to school to become holy? Just remember the line, "by the power invested in me by the state of..." and you will know which kind of "marriage" and who's "power" it is coming from. "Holy" is associated with "divine power"... There is not a divine power on this planet, not a single one! So, "holy matrimony" is strictly a spiritual matter, having someone marry you on earth is only a ritual created by man, often used for the purpose of financial benefits and sense it is by the power invested in them by the government it makes complete sense that something as sacred as marriage is supposed to be would be tainted by their god, "money".

If you are man and man, woman and woman, or man and woman it is only by God that you are married, God is spirit... you are spirit... spirit has no defining sex organs. I've been married to the same man by earthly law for 19 years, I still wonder sometimes if we are truly "soul mates"... are we truly "married"? *L* ;)

Saint, the remark regarding pedophiles, I believe that anything that results in hurting another human being is a ghastly sin, no matter if a person is 8 or 80 the person who hurt that person is in a serious boat load of trouble with God. Consenting homosexuals are not harming one another's spirits, not causing psychological damage. What does cause this kind of harm to people is when they are consenting adult people in love and the world wants to tell them their love is wrong. Good people whether homosexual or not are all angered and disgusted by those who harm children. Yes, there are some horrible people out there that are doing this type of damage to people all the time, but don't confuse homosexuals with criminals. There are plenty of heterosexual people out there harming children, do you think God will give them a more lenient sentence because they are straight?

Peace

Peter Zarcone said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Peter Zarcone said...

Brenda, I do not believe I have made any comprise; that is partly why I wrote this post. I also said I know that this is a difficult subject. Again I am only broaching this subject because I think the truth needs to be known without comprise. I have been willing to step out of the main stream, so that God can speak on a subject that too many have made far to simplistic., I believe I have very clearly shown what is the correct meaning of what is in Corinthians 6:9 Reread what I have written. If you do don't believe me, do the research for yourself, and see if what I have said is true.Check out the meaning of the Greek words. I have heard many people say that marriage is only allowed between a man and a woman, yet I have never seen a scripture that says that. The Bible only gives examples of man and woman marriage, but no where does it condemn any other unions. I agree that any desire that is solely centered in the flesh would become destructive; but a love that is based in the sole and spirit I believe can be blessed and a blessing. You have said "I point my finger at no one" and yet you are willing to point your finger at Gay people. Please do not be presumptuous about the degree that either you or Saint are being more obedient to Gods word, than other lives that bear the fruit of the spirit. 1Cor:10:23: "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Peace, Excellent post, thank you for your addition, and saying so simply what I have tried to explain in many more words

Anonymous said...

peterz-sorry if I have offended anyone, that is truly not my desire.The main thing is to keep our eyes on Him (Jesus) and not let Satan distract us by arguments that do not truly edify the Chruch. There is nothing that Satan would like better than to take our focus off what is really happening around us. By that I mean the deception of the Bush (Antichrist) system. Keep up the good work of unmasking the evil around us.
Brenda



Brenda

Peace said...

Thank you, Peter... if it were not for you the scripture to back up the things I say would take me a million to uncover for point sake and by then who'd be listening? So it works both ways (no puns, ;)). It comes quite naturally for me to simplify what is truth, seems it should be that way for everyone but it is difficult for many to break from doctrine they have learned. If we could all just remember what it was like when we were very young and did not know of what any of the stereotypes are it would be more like it was meant to be. I remember when my daughter was 4, she was playing out on the balcony, she came running inside to tell me that "the kids outside told her they didn't have a mommy" I said "who?" she said "those two little purple kids outside" I walked over looked down to see two small African American children playing under a tree. I regard that as a precious moment because there was nothing at all behind it accept description and her feeling sorry that they had no mommy. I acknowledged her concern, consoled her and left it at that, but another person may have taken that moment to imbed many negative ideas into their child's head that would later translate into racism. In the same way that a parent can do that to their child a translator of the bible can as well do the same. The bible warns of this over and over, but no one ever expects it will be someone they trust. When someone realizes they have to be freed from the possibility of these imbedded mindsets and begin from scratch and begin seeing the world from innocent eyes... that is what I liken to being "baptized". Yet another important phase of Christianity that has been ritualized... Perhaps you might consider embarking on uncovering the true meaning of baptism, Peter?

Peace

Peter Zarcone said...

Brenda. You have not offended anyone. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me. I have always said that if I am going to believe something I want to believe the truth. I also believe "You can do nothing against the truth". So if what I believe is the truth, it will be unshakable. If it can be shaken, I don't want to hold on to it. Let us not cling to things just because that is what we have been taught. When people make claims, let us hold those beliefs or claims to the light of the Word of God as openly as we are capable. Anyone can make a claim or state a doctrine and then not back it up with well founded in context scripture. Just because something has been taught or believed for a long time does not make it true. We must come away from what is false in order to grow. You said "the main thing is to keep our eyes on Jesus" What does that mean? Does it mean to gaze at a statue? or picture an image of Christ in our mind? No!! it means to be seeking truth in all things. He said "I am the TRUTH" and "The truth shall make you free". People question things for usually two reasons; one because they just want to argue are show off not really looking for the truth but to reaffirm what they have believed already, and two, because they are seeking truth. I see no harm in disagreeing or questioning something, if one is seeking understanding, and desiring the truth. Brenda I believe you are among the second type. You want peace and truth. I welcome questions. I don't expect or want anyone to just mindlessly follow anything I say. It is in the challenge (not the same as an argument like some of those right wingers on Hanchett's blog) that the truth is made more solid, and we understand why we believe what we believe. I would like to share a brief story. When I first became a Christian I had prayed " God, how will I keep from error? There are so many smarter people than me that are off into error." Then is answer came to me "Trust me." I wondered about that for many years. "Trust me" he had said. One day when my oldest daughter was only about 5 years old, we were at the beach and she wanted to go in the water and play in the surf. The waves were quite ruff; so I took her in and held her tightly by the wrist fearing that the waves could sweep her away. She kept twisting her hand loose and taking her little hand to hold onto me. She had more confidence in her ability with her little hand to hold on to me then her big strong Father's (muscles rippling everywhere, LOL) ability to hold on to her. I told her to let me hold her instead, because my hand was bigger and stronger and I was much better able to hold onto her than her onto me. Just then God spoke to me and said we are just like that. we have more confidence in our ability to save ourselves or know truth then we have in Gods ability to save us or the "Spirit of Truth" to guide us. I had learned what he meant by "Trust me". Judge teachings and doctrine by The Word and fruit it bears. Mt:18:3: " Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Living Positive said...

Peterz,
As always, I thank God for you.

Your last comment to Brenda means a lot to me.

I always felt bad because many times I questioned the Bible and my faith.

Now I know it is because I long for and seek the Truth.

and, yeah, I really wanna take control sometimes, but I know He will lead me where I need to go.

Peter Zarcone said...

I have attached a copy of a letter I sent in June of 1993 to Senator Sam Nunn, concerning Gays serving in the military.

Committee on Armed Services
Senate Russell Building Room 228
Washington, D.C. 20510-6050
Dear Senator Nunn:
I watched much of the hearing concerning the Lifting of the Ban on Gays in the Military on C-SPAN.
At one point you made a comment that this issue of discrimination was not the same as the discrimination against Blacks in our not too distant past, because there has never been any religious objection against Blacks and Whites serving together. That statement is in error.
For most of the first half of this century many Southern Baptist and other Christian denominations would not allow Blacks in their Churches because of the belief that it was against the will of God.
In support of this belief a very popular study Bible was used. "The Dake's Annotated Bible." Dake was a widely used and quoted Bible commentator. The comments and cross references were placed in margins and footnotes along with whole reference pages. (Also like the popular Scofield Bible). These Bibles are still used and sold today.
On page 159 of the New Testament, Dake lists "30 Reasons for Segregation of The Races". See enclosure.
Since this was written in their Bible, many people believed this was gospel.
Even if you believe gays are sinful, the scripture clearly teaches that we are not the judge, and to let the wheat and tares grow together until the time of the harvest: lest while we root up the tares, we root up the wheat also. (Matthew 13:29)
Christ died for all mankind, because we are all sinners. If we exclude people because of sin, we would have no one in the military.
It seems as though the real reason for keeping the ban in place, is to preserve the male macho mentality that promotes behavior like Tail Hook. Christ's judgment was harshest on the hypocrites. (Romans 2:1)
Sincerely,
PeterZ
copy:
President Bill Clinton Senator Barbara Boxer
Senator Carl Levin Secretary of Defense Les Aspin
Senator Ted Kennedy Congressman Barney Frank
Senator William S. Cohen Congressman Gerry Studds
Senator John McCain Herald-Sun Newspaper
Senator Claiborne Pell Washington Post
Senator Jesse Helms New York Times
Senator Lauch Faircloth Washington Blade
Senator Dianne Feinstein Bay Area Reporter

Anonymous said...

It would seem to me some people mistake love for lust. You can love someone without lusting for them or having sex. No one says you can't love you same sex freind but you should not lust for them. I love my mother my father my brothers & sisters and many other people but I do not want to have sex with them. I think some of you are mistaking your lusts for love.
I am sure you will disagree with me but I believe you are just trying to justify your feelings.
That by no means makes me any better than any of you for I to am a sinner as we all are no one more than the other. I just dont think you should try to justify it.That said I dont think any one has the right to take your choice away for no one person is better than the other and we all have our faults .
In the end it will be God to decide and I am sure he would look down more on those who are self righteous and would condem you for your sins even if that is their only sin(though I doubt it is).

Living Positive said...

Anonymous:
It is very easy to tell people what they are feeling without ever having gone through what they have.

I think what you are saying that because I am gay that my love for another man is nothing but lust.

If that were true, then when my partner was nothing but a shriveled up shell of his former self I would have left him for somone else I found more attractive to lust after so that I could have sex with him.

No, instead I stayed with him. Cleaned up his shit and vomit and sat up through the nights with him when he was dying. I consider myself a widower and after ten years still miss him dearly.

It is very sad that you would decide what it is to be gay without so much as having looked into it seriously. Your comments are being made from simple ignorance and I encourage you to go out and actually meet some gay people and learn what our lives are like.

As usual, I am not saying this in anger, I am simply saying that you should not judge your brother until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

To assume that a committed loving realtionship can only exist under ones definition of it is sadly narrow-minded and I hope that you will seek to learn more about us before passing judgement and say that I am just "justifying my lust."

Peace said...

Annon...

Nothing to justify... I am not now nor will I ever be a homosexual, much like a homosexual will never be a heterosexual, can you understand that? Lustful, immoral behavior is what it is, whether a person is gay or straight.

So sorry to read about your partner LP, GB you for being there for him.

Peace

Anonymous said...

Sex is lust whether it is for someone of the opposite sex or the
same sex. All I am saying is you mistake a lust for sex for love.
Sex has nothing to do with love.
I am sure you would love your same sex partner whether you would have
sex with them or not.

Peter Zarcone said...

Anonymous above .. Sorry you think that way but that would mean that sex is evil. That position is not Biblical. God gave us sex to be enjoyed in the proper context. It becomes lust when it controls your life and/or is about self gratification rather than a desire to please and fulfill the person you love. Lust can actually happen in a marriage if the sex is about self. Sex is the normal extension of an expression of affection and love. When two people that are in love share sex, it is the most intimate union of sharing their lives together. This is enough said on this subject. If anyone else wants to post again with the same OLD garbage that we have all heard over and over, YOU WILL BE DELETED!!! Any new insights are welcome. Between myself and Hanchett I believe we have covered about every conceivable angle. Suffice it to say that we have both posted on this subject, not to promote free love, and wild sex orgies, but to try to put this subject into perspective. I would remind the readers that in the main body of my post I pointed out how small an issue this is. The devil would like to continue to distract and keep the attention off of the true evils that plague this world. There are degrees of sin and damnation. Jesus said to those that would shut up the Kingdom of God " Therefore you shall receive the greater damnation"
I have had many requests for a teaching on water baptism, I will shortly post on this subject.

Anonymous said...

God gave us sex to be enjoyed in the proper context. The proper context would be for reproduction just as eating is for sustenance.
If you over eat you are gluttonous
as you have refered to Swaggert many times it is no different. And you are correct that even if you are married and you are just having sex for the fun of it you are just satisfying your primal urges that is not love and sex has nothing to do with love.I am just as guilty as any one else of this and am not trying to put anyone down I am just pointing out that sex & love have nothing to do with each other.

Sex is the normal extension of an expression of affection and love.
So what you are saying here is if I love someone it would be normal for me to want to have sex with them and that is not true Peter. I love my parents and my brothers and sisters very deeply but I do not want to have sex with them . I may hug them or even give them a kiss but that is not the same as wanting to have sex with them that is what a show of affection is.
You can delete this but that dont change the facts. It would really dissapoint me because you have brought me closer to God than I have ever been but it would tell me that you close your eyes to the truth when it does not fit in with what you have believed and you know that is what you have accused others of . Dont fall into the same
trap they have.
God Bless Peter

Living Positive said...

To say that sex and love have nothing to do with each other is the true perversion.

If we are to have sex just for reproduction, then you are saying that we are no different than the animals.

God gave us love as an expression of intimate love.

Do not confuse the love for your parents as the same as love with a life-partner.

Once you experience the true love of a life partner, I am sure that you will see things differently.

From the tone of your comments, I am assuming (and it is only that, an assumption) that you have not experienced true amour.

The unfortunate thing about the English language is that it limits our ability to communicate the distinction between brotherly love, the love for our family and the love we share with our partners.

You are right that I do not want to have sex with my parents, or my brother, or my cat. I love them all, but I do not love my parents as I love my brother, my friends or my cat. and so it is with hubands and wives, and other life-partners.

Peterz may want to comment on, for instance the Greek words for love, one of which is Agape and I believs one is Eros.

In english, they still translate to love, but they are completely different.

Living Positive said...

Anonymous,

I've had a few minutes to think about this.

There are several denominations that have the view that sex if for procreation only. Catholicism being one of them.

I understand your reasoning, based on the doctrine taught in these religions. However, understand that these doctrines are not necessarily in keeping with biblical teaching, but were introduced in order to maintain some control over the parish, or in the more extreme situations, condemn political rivals.

Sex should not be separated from love - in the type of love I mentioned earlier. In fact, sex should be considered inextricably intertwined with the love felt between partners.

For, if we have this view, we begin to understand that casual sex - sex without love - is what many speak out against. When we foster sex as a meaningful and loving expressin between two people, and not a self-gratifying joy ride, it is then when we will begin to heal the wounds in society because of the demeaning of sex.

If sex is limited to procreation then there is no need to love the person you are having a baby with. The whole institution of marriage and long time loving relationship between people and families has no meaning if the ultimate expression (besides giving one's life for someone) of our love is minimalized to impregnating and getting pregnant.

Peter Zarcone said...

Anonymous.. I suspect two things from your last post. one is that you are very young, and the other is that you are from a Catholic back ground.(correct me if I am wrong) I refrained from deleting your last post, because you seem sincere. First let me say I don't believe you think that the love for your parents or siblings is the same as the love for your spouse. I shouldn't even need to comment on that for that is ludicrous. Next it was Falwell I have mentioned, but Swaggert is also an excellent example of a hypocrite. When I said you can also be having lust that is wrong in marriage it was not saying that married people could not have sex for fun, they can have all the enjoyment of each other they want. What I said was if it was "for self" Heb:13:4:" Marriage is honorable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge". Selfish reasons without the desire to please your partner, but exploiting or using them ,being only concerned with your own gratification would be a lust. I don't guess you have read the previous post about "Why God hates sin." Tell me where in God's word does it tell us sex is only for reproduction? The proper context is when there is a committed relationship, that takes responsibility for each other. When you are young I know your hormones are ragging, but I promise they will calm down. Also the more taboo you make something, the more we in our flesh desire what we can't have. The ecstasy we experience in sex is a type of what can be known in oneness with God.
I am thankful to God that he may have used me to bring you closer to Him, but I have not closed my eyes to truth. I take my faith from what is written in Gods word, I try not to add things that are not meant by what is written, and I also try not to take anything away. Lots of claims are made but little are substantiated in scripture. 1Cor:10:29: Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other: for why is my liberty judged of another man's conscience? 2Cor:3:17: Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY.
Now beloved believer, please do not put any more burdens upon yourself or others that the Lord did not. If you want to walk around feeling guilty all the time for what you are thinking that is your privilege, but it will not help your spiritual life or growth. When I said I would delete further posts it is not to close my eyes to truth, but because I am tired of going around in circles over the same thing. The claims that have been made are all based in various traditions of men, not scripture. I have covered them quite completely. So if one has a sound Biblical basis for something without looking for an argument, that will be entertained. If a question is asked that has not already been answered I will endeavor to answer. Now I suppose I will be accused of not having patience, and to that I reply forgive me, but we have bigger fish to fry.

true to life said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

Yes I am from a catholic background
and thanks for the reply. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

Peter Zarcone said...

God bless, are you a young person also?

Peace said...

PeterZ,

I look forward to your take on baptism. I find myself thanking God I stumbled onto yours and Hanchetts blogs. Truly believe that there was a guiding light. This is the first time in my life I have felt such a strong spiritual connection with anyone that was not in my immediate family... there are more than a few here that are speaking to my soul, kind of like a family reunion. I can not tell you how much I needed this to happen, as prior to finding you all have been feeling quite isolated in my thoughts as I can see what time it is but it is difficult to discuss these topics with people who aren't quite on the same page yet. It means a lot to me to have people to talk to about these things, just thought I would take a moment to let you know how I feel.

God bless,
Peace

Peter Zarcone said...

Thank you Peace, We are kind of an online fellowship.

Anonymous said...

This whole site is AMAZING!!! Thank you for bringing facts to light!!!

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Anonymous said...

Sodomites will burn in the lake of fire, just like Sodom of old! You are deceiving many, and their blood is upon you. You think you are this great Preacher, but you are doomed just like they are. Post this on your blog, but you can't deal with the truth because you are a reprobate! You will shake your fist at God when He says... I never new you, thou wicked and evil doer. Depart from me!"

Anonymous said...

Peter, you know the scriptures. I’ve been encouraged by other posts. I fear the Spirit of God has not opened your understanding to these scriptures you have used in this post. I pray the spirit of this world is not allowed to darken your understanding. Don’t make the “breathed out Words of God” say something they were never intended to say. The Author of this letter has but one intended interpretation of what He has written. “Study to show thyself approved.” I believe you’re motivated by love, care, and frustration (seeing other “Christians” making themselves the judge). Nevertheless don’t be willing to cross over into heresy to bring all sinners to the knowledge and love of Christ. God doesn’t need us to make him “palatable”. Sin is sin. We don’t need to bend the truth or defend God. We need to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God. He is who He is and worthy of our praise. He will save all those who call on the name of the Lord. We are all broken needy people (heterosexual or homosexual). God desire to save us (2 Peter 3:9) and has given us a way to receive forgiveness. (1 John 1:7, Tisus 3:5) Be careful, brother…2 Cor. 4:2

PursuingTruth said...

I thank you for your sincere concern. I believe I know this subject very well, and as time goes buy I am more sure of what I have taught in this post.
I would ask you to do the same, as you have asked me. Let God speak to you on this. May I suggest you read my post on ‘Why does God Hat Sin” .

We are taught by Gods word that “The truth will make you free” Jn:8:32 This teaching has liberated many to come to the Love of Christ.
We are also taught buy our Lord in Mathew 7:15: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits.” Now when you look at this passage, we can understand several things, one thing that would be clear is that a false prophet would teach false doctrine
and false doctrine would bring forth bad fruit, as good doctrine would bring forth good fruit. Also notice that they are in sheep's clothing, which would say they are seemingly gentle and perhaps well meaning and as a sheep, maybe part of the “Flock”; but their motives are not Godly. They want to divide and concur, which is the tactic that the Republican, religious right power hungry leaders have as their intent.
Finally I would point out that Jesus tells us that we will know them not by their doctrine, but buy the end result of their doctrine “the fruit”. We are many times confused by doctrine, and men have disagreed through the ages. The smartest of men are still dumb when we look at the Wisdom of God. So Jesus made it more simple for us. He was saying here that you are not smart enough to always know the correct doctrine, so look at the end result. The “Fruit” We know what the fruit of the spirit is from Gal:5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Now look at the fruit of the teaching of the fundamentalists on this subject. Young kids kill themselves, or bullies beat them up. Parents reject their own children, Men or women get married trying to hide who they are, and end up sneaking around behind their spouses backs, and not only ruin their own lives but also ruin the lives of the wife or husband they may take. These things are just “the tip of the ice berg”
These people know what it means to be despised and rejected of men.

Anonymous said...

Не is happy that thinks himself so.