Friday, April 15, 2005

The Kingdom of God Vs The Kingdoms of this World

Watching and Waiting

As I read so many posts on the blogs, and listen to “Progressive Talk Radio” I fear that very few understand what we are up against, and what is really happening. Part of the problem is that even Christians think that Jesus is someone to be added to our plans. We are going along our merry way and have a spiritual encounter, add Jesus, and continue along our merry way. True Biblical Christianity is about something much bigger. It is not something you add to your life, it is what life is all about. We were not made to have our nice little life, or accumulate as much wealth as we can and ask God to bless it. We are all looking for that place of comfort, peace and rest. It only exists in the presence of God. Mt: 11:28: “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
We in America act like democracy and capitalism are infallible. These philosophies are only as good as the people that implement them. Our founding fathers realized this; that is why they instituted the systems of checks and balances. They had seen what tyranny and religious oppression had brought upon the people of Europe. The people that fled to America came here to be FREE from those unjust rulers. America had a vision to treat all men justly. All had the God given right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Today the Neo-Cons have all but destroyed our two party system. (It was meant to be a several party system) They control the White House, the Senate, The Congress, The Supreme Court,
The Media and most of the major corporations. We had a battle against the forces of darkness right from the start. Not only did we slaughter the original citizens of this land, but the effort to have a ruling class and oppress others had taken root as well. They justified a slave class so some could enjoy a leisurely life. Though our founding fathers for the most part may not have been Christians, they had a heart for their fellow man. Rom: 2:14: “For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:”
Many well meaning Christians are praying for America. We would like to see us get back on track, to fix the mess we are in. This is all well and good, but let’s not lose sight of what is really happening. Everything man touches and endeavors to bring about without the guidance of God will become corrupt. God is well aware of what is happening now. I don’t want to sound like a fatalist, but this has been foretold. It is fine to pray for us to keep the status quo, but it is more productive to pray according to His will. Even Jesus didn’t want to bear the cup of mans iniquity, and prayed that the Father would remove it, but prayed “not as I will, but as thou wilt”. God is not up in heaven sitting on the edge of his throne scratching his head wondering what is going to happen next. He is bringing about his will.
One step has led to another to bring history to this point. We have seen forerunners to the Antichrist in history. We have declared our disdain for the atrocities of Hitler, yet the power of deception has blinded the masses again in the person of George W. Bush. Not because either were so intelligent or clever but because there is a far superior intelligence behind them (and I don’t mean Carl Rove). It is a spirit, the Prince of Darkness and the Father of Lies. Eph: 6:12: “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”. Both Hitler and Bush claimed to be the nation's leader and had not been elected by a majority vote, and many citizens claimed he had no right to the powers he coveted. Both used a terrorist attack to motivate the masses behind them; Hitler because of an attack on one of the countries most prestigious buildings, Bush because of the World Trade Center. The next step both used was to invoke fear and manipulate the media to control the masses. Both declared a vision of world domination and started a war without provocation. So pervasive was their deceptive powers that they were even able to distort the teachings of Christianity to a self indulgent body of supposed believers. If Jesus were to walk into most churches today and had short hair and maybe dressed in casual clothes, would you be able to recognize him? If He were to walk in with long hair and tattered clothes he might even get thrown out. Likewise unless the devil walked in wearing a red jump suit, horns and a pitchfork, few if any would be aware of his presence. Why do you suppose that is? How are we suppose to recognize the devil or Christ? We know them by their spirit. Jn: 10:14: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.” This is one reason it is so important to walk the walk not just talk the talk, for it is in the walk that we know Him and his voice. Jn: 17:25: “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.” The world doesn’t recognize the Antichrist, because he is just like them. He has the same values; self first. As a seed is planted and grows into a tree, then over time it bears fruit. We have a self indulgent society, which lives buy the god of Mammon. This is not a Democrat or Republican thing, both sides have become corrupt. The problem we have with the Democrats is that it is hard to agree on spiritual principals, since their approach is more like the Sadducees. They like to believe that truth is relative. Therefore it is harder to find common ground. I do believe though that the principals put forth by the Democrats today are more closely aligned with the teachings of Christ As though the “law was written in their heart”. The Republican Party on the other hand seems to have been taken control of by an extreme group of Pharisaical Hippocrates. When you can focus on a FLASH point you can motivate people; even if what you have used is a lie and at another group of peoples expense. This was a tactic used by the Nazis. They villainized the Jews and used Christianity; much the same way the strategists of these evil empire builders have used anger and fear issues like abortion and gay rights. I would like to point out the subtleties here. To believe in choice is not the same as believing in abortion. God gave us a choice in the garden, but they don’t care about that, they think they can legislate righteousness. Choice is fundamental in a walk with God. Then they attack Gay people whom Christ died for. They call them Sodomites, they call homosexual love sodomy. I would like for a moment here to look at what the Bible says about Sodom. In Gen.19 if you read the account, it says ALL the men young and old came wanting to “Know” those men (Angels) that were in Lots house. Now it is not likely that ALL the men of the city where homosexual, and if they were why did Lot offer them his daughters? No, this was an act of violent rape. The Sin of Sodom was something more then homosexuality. As I have taught in another post, The Bible must interpret itself, not some right wing Fundamentalist. In Ezekiel: 16:49 it says “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, (have you had a look at porky gluttonous Jerry Falwell lately?) and abundance of idleness (the idle rich) was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy”. Who are the REAL SODOMITES!!! We are a society that will pay a basket ball player, a movie star or rock star tens of millions of dollars for a performance to entertain us in our “abundance of idleness” because we are trying to escape from our conscience, and will not look after the poor or needy.
The leaders of these deceived Fundamentalists and their false Prophets are no more interested in the souls of the lost, then they are in eating a dead skunk. Gay people are told they must stop being gay; an idea that to a gay person seems impossible. Mt: 23:4: “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” They have put the cart before the horse. They say you must get clean so you can come to God. The correct approach to liberate anyone would be to tell of the beauty and wonders of Jesus. Jn: 12:32: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” Any changes that need to be done will be done because of the love in the presence of God. Just as I am I come Lord Jesus. If we needed to get clean first, no one would make it. It is astounding to see the degree of hypocrisy and self loathing on the part of the Right Wing. Former Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina used as one of his chief political operatives
A self loathing homosexual . He helped deliver hard-edged political campaigns to elect conservatives that fiercely opposed gay rights, defeating Democrats by trying to demonize them as liberal. Now this man Arthur J. Finkelstein has married his long time gay partner “to ensure that the couple had the same benefits available to married heterosexual couples.” Talk about hypocrisy!!!
We used to take comfort in the fact that when ever the pendulum swung too far to one extreme there would be a reaction that would bring it back into balance. What we see now is an effort and conspiracy to control so pervasively that the return to balance will not happen. There is plenty of reason to believe that the last two presidential elections were stolen, and they have no intention of being “voted” out of office. I would also urge you to find out who was really behind. 9/11 . Stephen Hanchett has presented an excellent case that George W. Bush is the final Antichrist in both his book and on his web sites. (links to both on the side panel here). It boggles the mind to think they could be behind such a thing as 9/11, but if he is who we think he is, we haven’t seen anything yet. Our whole system has become so corrupt at this point; that I fear that there is no way out. What should we that see these things be doing? Spread awareness of the gospel and that the Kingdom of God is at hand. We must begin to come together with other like minded believers so that we may grow in wisdom and truth; that we may uphold one another. Many will think you are nuts, I already know this, they think it now of me. John: 1:10: “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not”. 2Tm:1:7: “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind”. There is much to learn. There is much to understand. The Time is at hand. The birth pangs have begun. This new age is dawning.


Claire said...

I want to congratulate you on a wonderful post Peterz. I agree with everything you've presented. To tell the truth, it helped put things in prospective for me. Very recently I've made the difficult decision to stop talking about Bush as the Antichrist. I've told friends, family, strangers... No one takes me seriously.

Because this is part of God's Will, I'm letting Him deal with this.

Revelations 17:17: For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

LaGanzie said...

All of this is so sad and depressing what is happening to our country. I read your blog and Stephen's blog and site and I bought his book as well.

Anonymous said...
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Claire said...

To the anonymous above mine, 3.5 years have gone by and two important political figures died (Terri Shiavo-Pope John Paul). The new Pope (Benedict) is VERY conservative and will probably succomb to any of Bush's commands-they both agree on issues that have plagued America for far too long. Below is a link to an unbiased report-made in the UK-about the new Pope.,,20709-1577966,00.html

Peter Zarcone said...
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Peter Zarcone said...

In an earlier post I had accused Odd Man of being a paid deceiver. In his reply he said that because I had said that, it told him something about me. Notice he did not deny it. This is typical of the tactics and lies. He never gives any real refutation.
What you need to be doing is spreading the word of truth carefully, and learning more about the depths of deceptions the spirit of Antichrist has perpetrated on the world, like election fraud and involvement in 9/11. Find like minded believers to grow together with, as Christ rebuilds his true Church and body of believers. Read the word of God for your self, not just what someone else says.
If anyone wants you to sign a petition about George Bush being the Antichrist, do not do it. You don't want the enemy to get your identity. The days ahead may get rough. We will be persecuted. In the news just the other day you may have heard how there was a sting in which 10,000 criminals were rounded up. Nobody blinked. We don't know the truth about who they were. This may have been a feeler to see how the public would react. Who will be next. I am not paranoid, just want to be wise.
To the poster that asked Hanchett some questions and wasn't satisfied with the answers, if you care to ask again, I will try to give you what I may have. Let me say though that nobody has a full knowledge yet. God is progressively restoring truth to the Church, and much scripture is yet to have its meaning revealed. We must trust that God will give us what we need as we seek him.

Some thoughts on the new Pope;
Well let's see .. "the new pope was the Tom DeLay of the Vatican, John Paul's Hitler-Youth henchman who gave intellectual theological cover and carried out the arch-conservative edicts that a) prevented birth control among the Third World's dirt-poor Catholic masses [protect the 2 month old fetus so you can baptize it then let em die when the starving baby is 2 years old], b) got rid of priests who espoused liberation theology as a threat to the Church's vital role in Western hegemony & global capitalism, c) castigated gays & lesbians to inferiority, non-existence, or condomless Hell itself, d) directed the Vatican's campaign to cover up the true extent of the priest-pedophile sex abuse scandal, e) the role of Catholic women ? let's not even go there .. and f) personally oversaw the Church's (effective) intrusion into the American presidential election when he decreed the denial of communion to abortion-rights-supporter John Kerry. " Taken from a web page.

Peter Zarcone said...

To Annoy Mouse above, Your hate crimes are not welcome here. Your posts will be deleted because you twist the facts and the truth. You have no light or anything beneficial to add. We can get your brand of lies from Fox News. We are the real optimists. We are not looking to escape in a false rapture, but will grow and mature in adversity. We see the Light and the brightness of His coming. The day when this tyranny and oppression will end is near. The poor will be fed and the sick will be healed, and the Lion will lay down with the lamb.

Peace said...
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Peace said...


Wondering if you are familiar with "Lucis Trust" formerly "Lucifer's Trust"? Here is a link to a pretty good summation of the cult...

About Lucis Trust

From what I can gather they promote their following to support the "New World Order". Which is where you would get for example those who will seek out discussion groups such as this and the IBTA blogs and other sites discouraging truth while promoting and encouraging their lies.... "Black is White", "bad is good", "war is peace", "dark is light", "Antichrist is Christ" so on...

Interested in your take on this.


Peace said...

Oops, sorry... that link is...

About Lucis Trust

Claire said...

Peterz, just did you feel about that last pope?

Peter Zarcone said...

To Claire, As with any media extravaganza, it is very difficult to know what the truth really is concerning Pope John Paul XXIII as a man. What we do know is that the position or office he was in is very powerful and commands respect. What kind of man he actually was we will never know this side of eternity. He was as I see it largely a product of the dogma that was fed to him. I don't believe he was a great leader in any way. He didn't seem to have a great deal of light, or revelation in Gods word; nor did he do much to move the church in helping the poor. To continue to teach a doctrine that the Pope is "Infallible" is an abomination, and rather than reach out to all in love and liberation, he spread oppression. He had nothing to do with liberating Poland. I am sorry if I seem cynical, but I have major problems with any form of hero worship or glorifying any man. I also feel that all the Pomp and Circumstance and display of splendor and wealth is disgusting, and completely contrary to how Christ taught us to live. Mt:23:5: "But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,"
Watching the Cardinals stepping out of their limousines while some servant held an umbrella, turned my stomach and reminded me of Michael Jackson stepping out of his Limo. Jesus said "He that is greatest among you shall be your servant". So What kind of man was he? God will judge him I don't know what was truly in his heart. Any good that came was as a result of peoples faith. If you are asking about the institution, It is a rich and powerful Empire that feeds off of the poor; another one of the Kingdoms of this world.

Peace said...

I apologize if I have offended you, PeterZ.

Just wanted to say I share your attitude on the Pope, and add also that in the bible, Matthew: "6:5 “Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, because they love to pray while standing in synagogues and on street corners so that people can see them. Truly I say to you, they have their reward. 6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. 6:7 When you pray, do not babble repetitiously like the Gentiles, because they think that by their many words they will be heard. 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

It also says somewhere, (you may know PZ?) not to refer to any earthly man as "father", all priests are referred to in that way... the Pope as the "Holy father".


Peter Zarcone said...

To Peace,
You have not offended me at all. I am delighted to have you participate.
I believe the scripture you are seeking is Mt:23:9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
God Bless

Peace said...

Thank you, you too. :)


You hit it, that is in deed the that which I was referring. The entire part is quite interesting and relevant to the times and discussion so, instead of copying it all in here I will just do my usual thing and "link" ;)



Claire said...

As I understand it Peterz, Catholics bow down to the pope. This is, in my eyes at least, an abomination-worshipping someone else as if they are God. However, the Pope opposed the war in Iraq, so at least he has one seemingly good point.

I'm still not sure as to why Bush went to his funeral, as Hanchett placed in one of his blogs before. I was under the impression that the pope and Bush disliked one another, or was that untrue?

Peter Zarcone said...

We have no way of knowing their actual feelings for one another, but I would not put them in the same category. We do know that John Paul expressed concern that Bush might be the Antichrist, I am not sure why he said that. George Bush went to the funeral not because he cared anything for the Pope, but because it was an opportunity for him to make an appearance on the world stage, and to begin to take a Crown of Religious Power.
Let us bear in mind the difference between the Catholic Institution, and Catholics. Many in our society are worship all kinds of false heros. We don't have to physically bow down to them to be paying homage.

JulieDee said...

Greeting Peterz! Despite my being a staunch secularist (at least in my public political opinions) I very much enjoyed reading your blog! Thank to Peace and LP for turning me on to your place here.

I can't agree with you more. The Religious Reich and the Repugnican Party have hijacked our nation for the last eight years and it looks as though they are planning to do it for eight more under the leadership of either DeLay or Frist. Either way we the people are going to get screwed! An American Fundamentalist Theocracy in this country will be something that will make the Taliban look like a Liberal Book Club! I've been following the late R.J. Rushdoony, Gary Bauer, Gary North, and the other Christian Reconstructionists for years and I can tell you these are the most violent, racist, and dangerous threat this country has EVER faced! Let me show you just a FEW examples of what they have to say:

"The background of the Negro culture is voodoo and magic; and the purposes the magic are control and power over God, man, nature and society. Voodoo and magic was the religion and life of America's Negro."
R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 60

"The burden of the law is thus against inter-religious, inter-racial, and inter-cultural marriages, in that they normally go against the very community which marriage is designed to establish.
Unequal yoking means more than marriage. In society at large it means the enforced integration of various elements which are not congenial. Unequal yoking is in no realm productive of harmony; rather, it aggravates the differences and delays the growth of the different elements toward a Christian harmony and association."
R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 257.

"The (Biblical) Law here is humane and also unsentimental. It recognizes that some people are by nature slaves and will always be so. It both requires that they be dealt with in a godly manner and also that the slave recognizes his position and accepts it with grace."
R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law (Nutley, NJ: Craig Press, 1973), p. 251

"The question eventually must be raised: Is it a criminal offense to take the name of the Lord in vain? When people curse their parents, it unquestionably is a capital crime (Ex. 21:17). The son or daughter is under the lawful jurisdiction of the family. The integrity of the family must be maintained by the threat of death. Clearly, cursing God (blasphemy) is a comparable crime, and is therefore a capital crime (Lev. 24:16)."
Gary North, The Sinai Strategy: Economics and the Ten Commandments (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1986), pp. 59-60

"The long-term goal of Christians in politics should be to gain exclusive control over the franchise. Those who refuse to submit publicly to the eternal sanctions of God by submitting to His Church's public marks of the covenant--baptism and holy communion--must be denied citizenship, just as they were in ancient Israel."
Gary North, Political Polytheism: The Myth of Pluralism (Tyler, TX: Institute for Christian Economics, 1989), p. 87.

"So let us be blunt about it: we must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God."
Gary North, "The Intellectual Schizophrenia of the New Christian Right" in Christianity and Civilization: The Failure of the American Baptist Culture, No. 1 (Spring, 1982), p. 25.

As anyone can plainly see from these statements in the world envisioned by these people there will be no room for diversity of any sort. They speak of forced conversion, and failing that executing, and enslaving those who refuse. And if you are a racial minority as I am, slavery, if you are healthy enough to be a slave which I am not, will be the only option other than the ovens. Worse than that for me, I'm a minister in a non-Christian faith AND a lesbian as well as being very active in the equal marriage movement. My wife, Andrea and I along with L.J.Carusone and Michael Thurber founded Marriage Equality California (now part of Equality California) and with Connie Riess of Marriage Equality NY founded Marriage Equality USA (sorta the opposite way you'd expect it to go!). So as you can see... when they start round folks up, unless we've made it to Canada by then (BURRRRRRRRRRRR!) it's off to the camps for us!

Please take a moment to click on my name and check out my blog "The 1/2 Kracked Kup" that you can access through there. I really think you'll enjoy it as I compare the Religious Reich to Nazism using the 14 defining points of that system of governance. I think you will be very surprised!

Your new friend


JulieDee said...

OH! I almost forgot to give credit for the quotes! They are from They have a number of pages there that cover many aspects of Christian Reconstructionists and Promise Keepers (Also very scary people!). You should check them out some time, it's easy to get lost there for hours just browsing!

Anonymous said...

"And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Regarding this phrase from another part of your blog, I dont think it refers to oil but it sure as heck sounds like the prediction of a Super-volcanic eruption in the not to distant future! Yellowstone? Lake Toba? ((Just had 2 of the largest earthquakes in modern record within months of each other)

Peter Zarcone said...

Greetings to JulieDee. I appreciate your comments. Let me say right up front, I am not one that would find fault with any person based on there sexual orientation. I do NOT believe that the Bible condemns the homosexual for being gay, or having a same sex partner. One of my purposes for starting this blog was to help heal the damage that the Antichrist Right ( I have trouble calling them Christian) has done to the Christian faith. You may be the way you are as a secularist because you knew inside that what they were preaching was not God enough for you. I will discuss in another post soon about what Sin is about. meanwhile you may like this Link Live Preacher I would also encourage you to read my other posts.

Muslim and proud said...
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Muslim and Proud said...

Dear PeterZ

I came across you blog by chance. It seems self defeating that you say that Jesus is all accepting then to say that Jesus is the only way. I accept jesus as one of gods prophets, but not as the only way. You may all snicker and say "poor soul, lost forever", I disagree. Through practicing my faith, I am able to communicate with God, and feel God's mercy and compasion...directly. Are you saying what I am feeling is false? higlhy unlikely.

What bothers me is, you come to the Middle East, invade our countries, steal our resources, support Israel, squeeze the last breath of the Palistinians, claim to be "spreading" democracy, then have the audacity to say that Jesus is the only way to heaven!

My friend, this "exclusiness" that you preach reeks of what Mr.Bush is preaching. I have lived in America for a while, and it never ceased to amaze me the sense of self righteousness that people have, as if the rest of the world, indeed the rest of the world's people didnt exist,or existed for thier plundering and missionary work.

You want to know somthing funny? The mullahs and the shieks here preach exactly the same: that islam and Mohammed are the only way to heaven. I have a jewish friend from my days in the States who also says his rabbi preaches that only jews and not gentiles will be "saved". Do you see a pattern here?

My opinion: all rabbies,priests and shieks who prech exclusivness are the ones going to hell. Do you really think god on Judgment day will be saying " christian? come on in, grab yourself a cold one. Jew,muslim?: step aside from the vehicle, your going to hell, boy!". Highly unlikely.

To conclude: its this "exclusivness" preached on all sides is what is destroying the planet, while the devil sits and watches, laughing. Prophesies from the Koran and Sunna also identify bush as the anti-christ.

Koran(2:11-13): "When it is said to them: "do not spread havoc on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to spread peace-Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive."

Your elected president, the anti-christ, is wreaking havoc on the planet in the name of "democracy" and peace" and will continue to do so, while you preach "exclusivness". See what you have brought on humanity? God help us all.

Peter Zarcone said...

To Muslim and proud, I think you may be misinterpreting my posts. If you have read more than one, I think it would become clear to you what I am saying, and that I am not condemning you in any way. Please read some of the other posts. As a Muslim, I know you do not except the New Testament as the word of God. As a Christian we believe that it is Scripture and the fulfillment of Old Testament promises. So let me say this first. It is not me that said Jesus is the only way. It was Jesus, as recorded in the Gospel of John :14:6: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." A Christian believes that Jesus is God incarnate. God become a man. Ala having put on a mortal body. So if he is God, how can we get to him another way? He was not just a prophet. To say that He was a prophet (which is a created being) if in fact he was the Almighty would be to degrade him. I would in no way imply that what you are experiencing when you pray is false. I would say however that who you may be experiencing could in fact be Jesus, even though you may not realize it. This is assuming that you have a true heart for God. You in yourself can never deserve or be worthy to come to God on your own. Jesus paid the price for your sins, weather you realize it or not. He made it possible to come to God. I have said in my posts that I believe that their are many who belong to God who are of other faiths, and may have many reasons that would make it hard to acknowledge Jesus.
The rest of what you have to say , I couldn't agree with you more. George Bush is in no way a true Christian. He says one thing and does another. I hope you can realize that what is portrayed as "Fundamentalist Christianity" is not the true and real thing that Jesus taught, but is of the spirit of Antichrist. You are correct in your assessment of our unjust war and evil in our middle east policy. I can only say that I am sorry for this country, and it's mass deception. I would also say that GWB was not elected either time. They stole both elections. there is plenty of evidence. Please check the links on the side bar, I think you may find them very enlightening, and that we are not far apart.

Living Positive said...

Well, said Peterz.

We need to remind folks from time to time, and even ourselves, that we have a very "western-centric" way of thinking and I personally sometimes forget to consider how I sound to someone who doesn't know me or the true meaning of living like Christ.

To Muslim and Proud: I agree completely with Peterz, in fact there is a passage in fact there is a passage that I can't quite locate right now that basically says that even those who do not know the law but still follow the spirit of the law are a law unto themselves - they belong to God.

the only thing I find hard to tolerate is intolerance.

Muslim and Proud said...

Peterz/living postive

great that we agree on bush at least:). I t is impossible that i would be experiencing christ in my prayers, or mohammed, i am experiencing God. To me, i cant fathom that God the almighty, creater of heaven and earth, appeared in the body of a mere mortal 2000 years ago, then persished for our sins. It just doesnt make sense.

During my stay in the states as an exchange student, i was was hosted for by a very devout christian family( they were also very caring, and taught me what it is to be tolerant). i attended sunday mass all year, and even went to sunday school! the basic question i had then, is the basic question i have now, how could father son and holy spirit be one? how can god manifist himself as a mere mortal? HE who has the power to create and destroy all, appears as a mere mortal, so sir, that never passed my logical reasoning, and never will, regardless, this is a theological diffrence and we would never convince each other.

But my original point is, and remains that I am sure that there is no prequisite in beleiving in christ as God to go to heaven. Will my higlhy devout grandmother who prays, gives alms, works tirelesly for charities go to hell? indeed will all my family, friends, and indeed billions of muslims around the world who beleive in God and the Quran as the word of God somhow end in hell? I politly refuse to believe that. Have a real think of your thesis , it is penetrable of many diffrent levels. I speak to you as i speak to the shiek that told me only muslims will go to heaven, and i replyed: what about all the good/decent christians and jews out there? That is the same argument i give to you sir.

I think at times like these, when evil is around us, the devil waiting to pounce, the people of the book (old/new Testament/Quran) should be looking to what unites them, not to what divides them, that i believe, is the way to salvation....

JulieDee said...

Hi Peter! SorrY I haven't stopped back here sonner... I could us ADD or Bi-Polar as an excuse I suppose but the plain truth is I simply can't always remember every place I post!

What triggered my memory of posting her was a couple of wonderful qupotes I came accross this morning while scouring the web while reearching an article I'm writting.


"I believe in human dignity as the source of national purpose, in human liberty as the source of national action, in the human heart as the source of national compassion, and in the human mind as the source of our invention and our ideas. It is, I believe, the faith in our fellow citizens as individuals and as people that lies at the heart of the liberal faith. For liberalism is not so much a party creed or set of fixed platform promises as it is an attitude of mind and heart, a faith in man's ability through the experiences of his reason and judgment to increase for himself and his fellow men the amount of justice and freedom and brotherhood which all human life deserves."
- John F. Kennedy

And second:

"I distrust those people who know so
well what God wants them to do because
I notice it always coincides with
their own desires."

---Susan B. Anthony

Actually the main reason that I prefer to keep my comments to the secular realm especially in a political discussion is that while I am a very religious and spiritual person (I and my wife are ministers of our faith which is non- Christian) I am also quite firmly a disciple of Thomas Jefferson (politically speaking only!) and therefore believe that anyone that must drag religion into an American political debate has, by default, lost. For as Mr Jefferson so eloquently put it...

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people
which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association

I have the greatest respect and reverence for the founding fathers. For in their wisdom and foresight they created for us one of the most enduring and most imitated legal documents of all time.

I would NEVER sully the name of Christianity by using it in the same context with the Right Wingers, which is one reason I call them the Religious Reich. You can find the other reason by reading The American Religious Reich. I think you'll find it an eye opener!

Peter Zarcone said...

To JulieDee I appreciate your post. I fear it was not an eye opener, I am well aware of the comparison. You may have a look at the Anonymous post (which was actually me puting it up) under my post titled "Revival of the Roman Empire"

Peter Zarcone said...

We have hinted and beaten around the bush if you will excuse the pun, but let me make this perfectly clear. George W. Bush is the Antichrist. To anyone that may be in doubt and to all the followers of this blog. This is an absolute MUST. Watch CSPAN2 on Sat May 7 at 2:30pm eastern time. I think you will have your answer once and for all

Living Positive said...
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Living Positive said...
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Living Positive said...

Muslim and Proud,
I could not agree with you more. There are good people in every faith that find God. I will never in any way ever deny that and I will certainly never-ever judge who will be allowed in to Heaven and who will not.

I believe that only God can make that choice. I do not make such statements initially because others made that judgement on me - it hurt deeply, and I never want to do that kind of harm to anyone.

It is in the attitude of exclusivity that intolerance is born.

Many of us beleive that we can live as Christ intended without professing to be Christian. For over 16 years, I left Christianity because of the intolerance of a few very vocal Conservitive "Christians." I felt that I wanted no part of a God that hated me for who, I believe, He made me to be. I volunteered to help people with HIV/AIDS get to their medical care 250 miles away. I drove this trip several times a week. One day a woman asked me if I was a Christian, I told her no. She looked a little surprised then said that I was the most Christian person she had ever met.

The point is that if you and I were to meet, we would agree on many things. I would never fault you for not understanding why I beleive that God came to us as Jesus. I am certain that there are many things about your faith that I would not understand. Yet we will both agree that we are called to care for the poor, the widow, the homeless, the orphan and to love our fellow man - even when they wish us harm.

I beleive that between the two of us we would also agree that anyone who would turn their backs on these basic beliefs are not good people.

I think that for us, that is enough to know that we are together - that we have the same sense of justice and a thirst for peace.

For me, at least, I can say that is all that matters.

IMHO, even if someone does not believe that there is a God, but treats their fellow man as if there were a God - with respect and dignity - and they do what they can to be a good and upright person, would not be cast down simply because they were found to not be able to comprehend or accept the existance of God. I believe that God is just. I believe that he will judge us by the standard that we judge others. Because I believe that compassion is one of the greater qualities a human can have.

I believe that in the Spirit of the scriptures many "Walk with God." Some try to express this using the context and text of the Bible, but someone, like I once was, hearing or seeing only the words here on the screen, cannot hear the love and compassion in our hearts when we say: "Those who do not know the Law but follow the Spirit of the Law are a law unto themselves" what I am saying is that it is in our hearts that we find God. And I am saying this with acceptance and I am honored to call you my friend because I see His love in you.

So, no. I do not believe that you or anyone else for that matter will go to hell solely because of who or what they believe. More, I believe that we will enter Heaven depending on the character of our innermost soul.

Anonymous said...

Those who deny Jesus will be denied the kingdom of God.

Muslim and proud said...

Living positive
I am honoured too. It is tolerant people like yourself that give me hope for the future.

I dont deny jesus or the teachings of jesus, I just dont believe in his divinity( excuse my "blasphemy"). Maybe he had a part of god within him, but thats as far as i would go. As for denying me the Kingdom of God, respectfully I dont think you are in a position to do so sir.

Claire said...

Muslim and Proud, I think the anonymous poster was saying that anyone who denied Jesus' teachings-including the ones about Him being the Son of God-would be denied the Kingdom of Heaven-which is written in the Bible.

Peter Zarcone said...

The Fact remains, Jesus is the Lord God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. If you say " I dont deny Jesus or the teachings of jesus, I just dont believe in his divinity" then you have denied his teachings. He claimed to be God, so if who you are praying to is God, it is Jesus. You said you don't think God could become a man? He can do all things.
Jn:8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he (the Massiah), ye shall die in your sins.58: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
59: Then took they up stones to cast at him." They took up stones to cast at him because they knew what that "I AM" meant. He was equating himself to the I AM in the burning bush. He was saying he was God. I would encourage you to read this blog.

muslim and proud said...

I will read your blog sir, but you please re-examin your thesis away for theology and more into the realm of common sense. It is imposible that everyday when i lan down to pray, I am praying for a mortal> No sir, i am praying for almighty God, the creator of Heaven and Earth.

I am not qouting from the Koran, so please dont reply and qoute from the Bible. What I am saying is, be rational. A rational bieng who believes in God will rationalize that all beleivers will go to heaven, providing they were good,caring people on Earth.

To me, I dont believe any rabbi who says "only the chosen people will go to heaven", i refuse to believe any priest who preaches that "only if you believe in the divinity of jesus you will go to heaven", and indeed, i dont believe the shiek who says "only muslims will enter paradise".

I can keep repeating my point, you can keep qouting scripture, but we wont get anywhere. All i am saying, think rationally, not blindly. Do you think that God the almighty, will let 60% of this planet, billions of people, perish in hell becuase they dont believe in the divinity of jesus?. Sir, put away your bible and i wil put away my koran for one second and think. God loves us all, the people of the book should be united to face the scourge of this earth,true evil, your elected president, the anti-christ. Not waste our energies hating each other. As i said before, that is the only path to salavation.

Peter Zarcone said...

I trust when you read the blog you will have your answer. Particularly The one titled "The Heavens are Telling"

Anonymous said...

Please keep posting; it is such a source of hope for me. There is nobody I know that feels this way and I truly believe that Jesus sent me here to show me that I am not alone; that others see it also. I am just amazed that there are so few. May God Continue to Bless You. And I thank you.